
Afriquan Film Podcast S1E1 – Kevin Kriedemann


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Show Notes
Afriquan Film a podcast series in which we shall explore our continent’s cinematic landscape through film recommendations, as well as conversations with pertinent practitioners working within this creative industry.
Episode 1 finds us talking with Showmax PR Specialist and africa.film founder, Kevin Kriedemann about streaming trends surrounding African programming, the current landscape of African film and the growing catalogue of African content being made for international audiences. Follow us on @afriquanfilm on Instagram and Twitter for more information.
Credits
Host: Yazz The Student
Guest: Kevin Kriedemann
Voice Artist: Nomava Kibare
Script and Edit: Yalezo Njuguna
Original Music Produced by: DoouShii
Producers: Yalezo Njuguna and Kibare wa Njuguna
Film Recommendation
I Am Not A Witch [Podcast Recommendation] – Trailer
Softie [Guest Recommendation] – Trailer
Brought to you by:
Full Episode Transcript
Episode Introduction: Yalezo Njuguna
Yo, what’s up? How you doing? I hope you’re relaxed. I hope your chillin’. My name is Yazz, Yazz the Student. First name, Yalezo, and welcome to Afriquan Film. So Afriquan Film is an initiative which we started, me my brother started, at the beginning or right before lockdown, but it launched literally on the first day of lockdown as an online film club to explore African cinema. So we started this online film club on Instagram and Twitter, where we essentially every like Thursday and Saturday, we said, let’s just watch an African film. It doesn’t matter if it’s from South Africa, from Kenya, from Senegal, it kind of ran straight through lockdown, and then it stopped but now we’re back and we are starting as a podcast, which is why I’m here talking to you today. We’re not taking that to the next step and essentially not just watching African films, but having conversations around African film.
So this series is going to be around 13 parts and I’m very excited because we have an amazing lineup of guests that we’re going to be talking with exploring the African cinematic landscape from a lot of different perspectives. Whether it be from filming, whether it be from filming and talking to filmmakers, or even a PR perspective, or sales and distribution perspective. We’ve literally gone all around to kind of get different perspectives on the African cinematic landscape to find out what makes an African film tick, what’s the infrastructure surrounding it? and also just genuinely what are some of the great African films or what are some of your favorite African films.
So how this is going to work essentially, is each of these videos are going to come with a film recommendation. And now these film recommendations ,aren’t necessarily what, aren’t necessarily my personal favorite films, but are films which I hope kind of encompass a lot of different landscapes of African cinema from genre. So, some may be comedy, some may be arthouse and then also in terms of location to kind of get a a wide scope. So that essentially, by the end of the 13 episodes, there’s something for everyone that you can kind of take from in terms of film recommendations. And then once you get into the conversations, you then also get a deeper understanding of the African film landscape and the infrastructure that surrounds it. I know I have learned so much so I’m very, very, very excited to kind of share this journey with you. Which then leads me to the first film recommendation, well, not the first film recommendation. This is technically the 8th film recommendation. To find the first seven, you can go onto our Instagram and Twitter pages, which is African film, and you basically see the first seven so I’m not going to be touching on those seven but to kind of give you the first seven which we did cover and there are a lot of like really really cool fun facts on these films. Sew the Winter to my Skin, Happiness is a Four Letter Word, Matwetwe, Pop Lock and Roll, Atlantics, Supamodo as well as a Showmax film called Uhambo. So if you want to find out more interesting facts about those films, do go check out our social pages and you’ll find quite a bit of them there. And now our eighth film finds this traveling all the way to Zambia. Well, this film is set in Zambia and it is a film called I am not a Witch
Excerpt from trailer plays
Yalezo Njuguna continues…
So this film came out in 2017 and is directed by the BAFTA award winning Rungano Nyoni and it’s centered around a performance by Maggie Mulubwa. So I’m Not a Witch is set within a contemporary Zambia and is centered around this nine year old girl orphan who is in this town where no one knows her. And because no one knows her, they’re kind of spooked by her presence. And essentially, they accuse her of being a witch and because she neither confirms nor denies the statement of being a witch she is then sent to a witch farm which is which is governed by the government. It’s very hard that the story sounds both absurd. But it is so absurd and so realistic at the same time that a lot of the time it kind of borders on dark comedy, but because it’s so real it’s so unsettling. Like watching the film, I was infuriated at a lot of the scenes which were occurring so she is then sent to this, she’s then accused of being a witch and they even brand her a witch. So, they even like put these tattoos on them which once you see that tattoo you know that this person is a witch. This is a nine year old gold by the way and on the on the specific witch farm she is the youngest because most of the other women who have been branded or accused, and it’s only women, who have been branded or accused of being witches are middle-aged and kind of slightly above. So you have these groups of women who’ve been accused who now live on this farm and when I say they live, they’re forced, they’re enslaved onto this farm. They have these kind of tags. I can’t even call them a tag. But they are, they’re not able to leave because they’re literally attached, there’s something which if they walk far enough, it will stop them from kind of moving. And when she gets there, Shula, the central character, the nine year old girl is called Shula. When Shula gets there, they kind of get these longer extensions that allow them to walk longer, to have more freedom, but it’s really so they can do a lot more manual labor, specifically on the farm. But it’s not just manual labor, they consult on issues, where if the government thinks or if this specific minister who works with this farm thinks that there’s a consultation; Let’s say someone has robbed someone, and they want to know who did it. They call on these witches or these spirits to consult to find out the truth. And the truth is they make consultations or their deductions purely based upon assumptions. So one of the times and this is I think, the only spoiler I’m going to give in terms of like general spoilers. One of the first times that Shula is sent on this mission, yet again a nine year old girl, Essentially, someone had stolen money, and they wanted to find out who stole the money. And this was the first time that she was doing one of the verdicts, and she called upon the older which is to kind of say, “What do I do?” And what they said is, look at the darkest skinned person, or whoever is the dark one and looks and looks… ….central theme was like whoever the darkest person is, is the one who’s guilty. ’cause others will say if they’re looking up if they’re looking down, if they’re this this this… …it’s all essentially based upon assumptions. So these are not necessarily witches, but they are treated like them. And you kind of get to see how these women who have essentially been branded as something which they’re not have to kind of live within society. And yet again, it is so absurd yet so realistic that it borders on dark humor. So if this is a film which you want to explore it is available on Showmax. I would highly recommend it. It is very much of a thinker of a film. I know I went from both being enraged by it to, actually you know, my main space within the film was being just enraged, puzzled, but also understanding that this is very much a reality that we live in within specific parts of, not just us but across the world, in terms of misconceptions and the way that, not just witches are cheated but essentially women. So that is our eighth full recommendation is by Rungano Nyoni. So yet again, I Am Not A Witch can be found on Showmax. And speaking of Showmax, our first guest is a Showmax representative. He is Showmax’s PR publicist, Kevin Kriedemann. We had a very insightful conversation which delves into both the African landscape in terms of the types of African films which can be found on Showmax, but also how African films have been performing within these specific spaces. So that is something which interests you, here is the podcast.
Announcent: Nomava Kibare
This episode was sponsored by the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture.
Welcome to Afriquan Film!
INTERVIEW BEGINS
Yalezo Njuguna
This is actually our very first recording for the Afriquan Film podcast. I’m very I’m very excited about this first guest of ours because he’s a publicist. He’s a writer. He’s a blogger. He’s a film enthusiast of note. He’s a father of two children. But one thing that I found very interesting, which we also have in common, is that we both played provincial waterpolo within our, within our younger years. I played provincials for the under 19, Central Gauteng in like 2011. And then I found that, I saw that, you that you played
Kevin Kriedemann
You definitely have a good decade on me. I was playing in ’99 for Cape Town. Yeah, I love waterpolo, and I still want to go back to it, but it’s one of those sports that is not fun to do when you’re not fit. I went back 5 years ago. I’ve never been so miserable in my life for the beginning bit of it. And then I just got back into some sort of shape and then it turned into winter and they stopped again, and I just thought, I can’t do this to myself every six months, I’m too old. I do have high hopes to get back to it. It is very happy memories for me.
Yalezo Njuguna
Kevin is very much a publicist. He currently works at showmax. He has his own blog at the same time. He has done work for a lot of great establishments including Variety, The Hollywood Reporter. And he can also tell us anything that I may have missed that he may think may be vital to this conversation in terms of his work spread. And without further ado, here is Kevin Kriedemann.
Kevin Kriedemann
Thanks. You did a great job of setting me up talk to me for PR work after this really.Yeah, I mean, that’s nothing else. I think maybe…I had five years out running the PR for Al Jazeera, across Africa, with a wonderful publicist called Joy Sapieka. I mentioned that I knew really, because I think for me, that was such a learning curve. Just in terms of growing up in Cape Town, you’ve had to grow up culturally, American and British as much as anything else. So it was a really wonderful opportunity for me just to really get to know my continent a lot better. Definitely had a steep learning curve, but it was great. I think that’s shaped a lot of what I do. And then I also work with Triggerfish, an animation company here in Cape Town. Also one of my favorite clients.
Yalezo Njuguna
So in terms of Triggerfish, that is also publicity I’m guessing?
Kevin Kriedemann
Yeah. So I’m actually producing something with them at the moment. But I’m traditionally, their publicist and that’s my main job.
Yalezo Njuguna
I see. Must have been very interesting working for Al Jazeera. Because I’m guessing that was very much out of your usual comfort zone. Also, not just from a Cape Town perspective, but also from a content perspective.
Kevin Kriedemann
Yeah, I mean, the stakes are a bit higher, hey! When you’re talking about potential civil wars, and journalists in jail in Egypt, for doing their job. So I’ve got to say, coming back to… I went from them to Showmax and it’s…I think it’s a little bit easier to sleep at night. When you are just trying to get people to find something nice to watch. Rather than potentially getting something…misquoting someone and starting major problems in the world.
Yalezo Njuguna
It’s quite depressive work. Yeah. I’m guessing, it can be quite depressive or anxiety inducing work.
Kevin Kriedemann
Yeah. But I mean, I really liked Al Jazeera’s approach, and I’m a big fan of them. They were very much from the ground and speaking to ordinary people, not just the people in positions of power. So I kind of found that a breath of fresh air as well, I think just compared…they’re a good balance to have in the world.
Yalezo Njuguna
So, with regards to the Afriquan Film…with regards to the Afriquan Film Podcast, I think we are going to have the same first question for everyone that we do speak to because this did kind of started off as a movie club, so as a part of the movie club aspect that I do want to keep of it. And that would be to ask you, what is your favorite African film? And why is it your favorite African film?
Kevin Kriedemann
I hate questions like this, it’s like asking me who my favorite child is?
Yalezo Njuguna
Well, it doesn’t have to be of all time. You can even… you can even like… you can even think of it like as right now. Because I also have troubles with that question. Because there are different movies that I like for different moods, but like right now, Supamodo still has a very close place in my heart…because, I don’t know like, it’s a movie which I’ve watched a lot this year, mainly because it’s so pure, like, and when I watch it, I kind of get away… I kind of get away from like the outside of the world plus, also I’m Kenyan, I’m Kenyan – South African. I’m Kenyan on my dad’s side and I’m South African and my mom’s side but I haven’t been to Kenya in so long. So that when I watch Supamodo, I feel like I’m getting both this injection of like pure innocence and like this heartwarming story, but also getting like a piece of home…my other home at the same time. So you don’t have to kind of take it as this is the defining movie, that I am saying is my favorite movie of all time, but like, what is that one that you kind of really enjoying right now?
Kevin Kriedemann
So I mean, Supemodo definitely would have been on that list. It’s right near the top. I absolutely adored it. It’s one of those films that kind of makes you want to cheer and cry at the same time. Outside of that, I mean, I do find it’s a difficult question because so much… I also always second guess myself because I feel like I’m changing and my tastes are changing. So I never quite trust that I would experience something the same way 10 years later. Something that I’ve just seen that I thought was absolutely amazing was Softie by Sam Soko, another Kenyan, which just won the Audience Award at Encounters very deservedly.
Yalezo Njuguna
Ah that film! Oh my gosh!
Kevin Kriedemann
I kind of watched that and I go, Yep!, this is this is why the DA is never going to win an election because they just don’t understand politics on the ground.
Excerpt from trailer plays.
Yalezo Njuguna
You were saying about why you love this.
Kevin Kriedemann
I really like how much of what a personal story it was as well that you really get the sense of the cost on his family. Of him trying to change the world, and the sense of kind of different priorities that people have. He thinks that he can make Kenya better. He’s improving his family’s life but his family would be much happier if he was just around. So I think that’s, that’s something that I also kind of felt. And I like the way they…I like the way when, for instance, when they talk about these people coming to get the t-shirts once a year. I like the fact that they made it so totally understandable that if you’re in a system where you don’t trust your politicians, then you absolutely, it’s logical that you want to get as much out of them as you can in the 15 minutes that you have to spend with them before each election every four years. They’ve managed to get that tone right. It’s not…they’re not kind of talking down to people. It’s, they understand the system, they’re part of it. It’s a close, intimate look at all of that. And I really loved that about it. It just felt like it had a lot of heart and a lot of warmth to it.
Yalezo Njuguna
And you also, when you see that, you also kind of see the same sentiments, kind of, centered around the way our elections because…you kind of then yeah…you understand that, you know that, they’re only politicking to you at this specific point in time. So since they’ve got your attention now, I mean, get what I need. So if you don’t have money, what are you actually doing for me as a politician? So that that was a very, it was very cutting and yeah, I watched that with my family and we were…we were blown away. That was a that was very much a brilliant film. So, you don’t need to second guess. That was that was an amazing choice. I do think people need to go watch it. It has now officially entered the Oscars race with it winning at DIFF
Kevin Kriedemann
And it had won the editing award at Sundance, as well. So it really is an A-list documentary that can compete anywhere in the world. So I’m going to be interested to see how it does.
Yalezo Njuguna
So tell me, When did you join Showmax as a publicist?
Kevin Kriedemann
So it’s a couple of years now. I joined just as they were starting their first original. So Tali’s Wedding Diary. And it was really good timing for me because Al Jazeera…our contract was up for renewal. And it was up for renewal at a time that Qatar was being blockaded by all of its neighbors, because they were trying to put political pressure on them to shut down Al Jazeera. And the date that my contract was due for renewal was the same day, they’d asked for Al Jazeera to be shut down. So yeah, Showmax coming along was really good timing for me, because we knew that our contract with Al Jazeera was up for renewal. And we knew that Al Jazeera had bigger problems because Qatar was being blockaded. And there was immense pressure within the Middle East to shut down Al Jazeera at the time. So when the opportunity came to work on Tali’s Wedding Diary, and thought this sounds really fun. And I liked the opportunity to start something fresh and felt like the local production industry could do with a fresh perspective and kind of an extra broadcaster on the scene. So I jumped at it. And that went really well. And then it grew into a broader role started doing all that content to PR and that’s where I am at now.
Yalezo Njuguna
What does that kind of genuinely entail for you? If someone wants to kind of understand what it is a publicist would be doing at a Showmax.
Kevin Kriedemann
Cool, Showmax has been quite fascinating because the first meeting I walked into, which was a marketing meeting had about 50 people in it whereas I’m used to the South African film industry where I worked for very successful companies and I am the all in marketing department of one so it’s been really lovely. Marketing at Showmax really is dealt with by specialists. So when I say I do PR my sole job is to try and get media in South Africa to talk about Showmax and content on Showmax without being paid for it. We’ve got a separate team of content marketers who create content for our own media. That would be the Showmax blog, would be things like the DSTV website. And they are talking about things on Showmax but it’s on public platforms that we own. And then there’s also, they pay publications to write about us as well. I do all the unpaid stuff. So with something like Tali’s Wedding Diary, it would be putting Julio up for interviews, it would be sending out press releases, organizing screeners for journalists to see it in advance, and bringing people on to set to come and see what our Showmax original feels like. So it’s that sort of stuff. By and large, it means that I am getting paid to watch TV and write about it and talk about it. So, I’m very aware of the fact that I’ve got a really nice job. And I get paid properly for it as well, which is also really nice in this industry. So I’m very grateful for it. I think if there’s a downside, it means it’s just that there is so much content right now that it does feel like I’m never ever going to keep up or let alone get completely on top of it. But that’s really a small problem to worry about.
Yalezo Njuguna
Yeah, but since you’re talking about there is so much content, there is quite a lot of content. The issue we’ve kind of had time to, not necessarily set with the fact but really explore it, especially specifically… within the first… within the original lockdown when we didn’t know what was going on. Which is also at the same time that I decided to start Afriquan Film as a Movie Club. And we did continuous screenings of a lot of different types of African films from Supamodo to Atlantics to Happiness is a Four Letter Word. What I found very interesting when I did them specifically outside of like the big blockbusters, which would be your Matwetwe’s and your Happiness is a Four Letter Word’s was that a lot of people didn’t know about these films, or they had kind of misconceptions about these films. I think of all the films except for Happiness is a Four Letter Word, a lot of the feedback I get about the films is like, “Oh wow! This is great. I didn’t know that this existed” or “Oh wow! This was a really good African film.” So there’s been a lot of like misconceptions specifically around African programming that I found from the film club perspective. Which would then lead me to want to ask you, if you know any of the statistics of how African content actually does perform within the Showmax platform.
Kevin Kriedemann
So it performs really well. I mean, that’s the short answer. So for context, in August, and this is the first time ever for Showmax. But subscribers in South Africa, Kenya, and Nigeria, all spent more time watching local content than international series. So that’s not quite to say that local is more popular than international, because if you take international series and movies together, they’re still more popular than local. But more local content than international series. And that’s a move that we’re seeing increasingly. So, local series in particular are really popular. If you look at the South African audience, six of last week’s top 10 were local. The The River, Gomorra, The Queen, Dinner with Somizi, Life with Kelly Khumalo and Housekeepers. And if you look at the first half of the year, four of the top 10 series would have been local. That would be The River, Somizi & Mohale: The Union, The Queen and Lockdown. Local movies are popular, but they’re, it’s definitely still dominated by international movies. So Blessers was in the top 10 for last week, Mia and The White Lion is there at the moment. But if you look at the top movies for the first half of the year, none of them were local. So movies still seems like we’re skewing International. But series, we’re definitely skewing local. And when we look at why people are signing up for Showmax, we look at the first view. And we kind of go; the first thing that they’re watching is presumably the reason why they’ve come to Showmax, and that’s increasingly local content. So it really is a big driver for us. And it’s been a big shift. If you look back to 2019, even though only two local shows and our top 20 would have been The Girl from St. Agnes and The River. So to be at a place where we are now, where actually the most popular shows are regularly local is a new shift. And if you look at last year’s top 20 movies, there would have been three locals. Which is probably a little bit more in line and those were all Afrikaans last year, but I don’t think they will be all Afrikaans this year. So I do think it’s one of Showmax’s big selling points. We’re part of multichoice, we’re tapping into the largest content creator in Africa and we’ve got decades of experience on the ground. And I think that we’re making content for African audiences, rather than making content for global audiences. And I have felt looking at some of the first originals to come out of Netflix that I had really high hopes for, I’ve been a bit disappointed that sometimes things get lost in that kind of translation when you start aiming for a global audience, rather than just speaking to the people in your own country.
Yalezo Njuguna
And then do you know if there’s any kind of information on traffic like continentally? So for example,
Kevin Kriedemann
Sure, so local…sorry you finish
Yalezo Njuguna
No, no, no. So, for the people listening? What I mean by that is like, for example, we’ve been speaking about…all that we spoke, majority of what we have spoken about in terms of our favorite films were actual Kenyan films. But in terms of… how do those Kenyan films…do those Kenyan films… like I remember Rafiki? It was repeated Rafiki, came out in like June during Pride Month. And I remember that there was kind of like a decent splash on that. But was it kind of consumed well within the South African context. Is South African content received well outside of South Africa?
Kevin Kriedemann
I think there’s a media interest at the moment. So, I got a lot of coverage for Rafiki, even thoughit had been around for a while. And something like Yvonne Orji’s HBO special, she is a nigerian comedian, who’s also one of the stars of Insecure also did really well. So those both made it into the top 10 in South Africa but I do think that that’s the exception. As a general rule, local is still regional. There is not a Pan-African audience. So no Kenyan/Nigerian shows would pop up in the South African top 10s, generally. Big Brother Naija has been a little bit of a break out like that, and that probably 25% of its audience has been in South Africa. I might be slightly wrong on that so don’t hold me to that stat but it’s had a substantial audience in South Africa and in Kenya. And it works on the rest of the continent like that as well, unfortunately. So if you look at Kenya, the top 10 series for the first half of the year included two local shows, but they were both Kenyan. So that would be Selina, which was most popular overall. And if you look at last week, kind of six of the top 10 shows would be Kenyan, but again, not African. And Nigeria is the same. So five of the top 10 series for the first half of the year, were local, but they’re all Nigerian. So it’s one of the things that I’d love to see change, because in my experience, South Africa doesn’t actually necessarily make the best movies. I think a lot of my favorite things that I’ve seen haven’t been South African. And I think more than that, just this is such an expensive industry. The economics of this industry really don’t always make sense. And they particularly don’t make sense if we’re making films for just a South African audience. Triggerfish, for instance, could never make an animated feature film of international quality for a South African audience. They’re just purely not enough people here to pay for it. So, if we could find a way to actually create a Pan-African audience that could pay for Pan-African content would be able to have bigger budgets, we would be able to make better films, but at the moment that’s not happening for a number of different reasons.
Yalezo Njuguna
What are some of those reasons that you believe that it’s not happening?
Kevin Kriedemann
So I mean, partly, it’s just streaming is still really hard in Africa. So streaming, you would think, would be a really nice way to create a Pan-African audience very simply but there are still a lot of barriers to entry. From power cuts to credit card access to internet costs and speed and all of those things. And then partly, we’re still at this very weird stage where I don’t think as Africans, we know each other very well. I think Hollywood has done such a wonderful job of exporting their culture that we all know more about New York than we do about kind of our neighboring countries. So, I don’t think that there’s been enough exposure or enough appetite. And then to be fair, language is also very tricky. So language, subtitles are a barrier for a large part of our audience. And it’s, I don’t think animation is very easy to dub. Live action is very hard to dub effectively. So, I mean, those are just some of the reasons and I’m sure there are a whole lot more that could be unpacked within that for quite a glib answer. But I think it gives you some idea of just what things are up against. But I do feel when I watch things, and I mean, I’ve watched content from across the continent, and it always feels it does feel like we’ve got a lot in common. Even in places like Egypt that you don’t necessarily expect to have a lot in common with. So I’d love to see more of it. And I’d love it to become more easily available. I think that’s the other sad thing is just the nature of the distribution world means that these big films coming out of Africa are generally being funded by international distributors. And they’re being shown everywhere else in the world and winning all sorts of international awards. And they’re very rarely ever actually seen on the continent itself. So, I think on one level, it makes sense. I think it makes sense that you want to see, when you watch local, you want to see it as hyper local as possible, in your language, with kind of all of those little quirks that potentially exclude people from elsewhere in some ways but make it more meaningful to you. But I also think that there are breakout films. The Supamodo’s, The Rafiki‘s. Those sorts of big in… The Softies that are winning international prizes and are as good as anything else that we should be watching alongside kind of a diet of Hollywood and British content.
Announcement: Nomava Kibare
This season’s interviews were primarily recorded remotely via Zoom during September and October 2020. The Afriquan Film Podcast is produced by Enraptured Odyssey, a media company based in Alberton, South Africa. To find out more on Afriquan Film and Enraptured Odyssey, you can go to their website, enraptured.africa. And you can also follow their social pages @Afriquanfilm. That’s A-F-R-I-Q-U-A-N film on social media sites for more fun film facts.
Yalezo Njuguna
Besides actually being part of Showmax, another one of the projects that you have, which is another thing we have in common, is currently not functional but it’s going to come back soon, I’m hoping. But you also had your own African film club, which is specifically focused on African film. How was that received? And how did that kind of work? and what was the participation you found around trying to promote Afr…
Kevin Kriedemann
…so we set up a website called africa.film. And we did a couple of things with that. I think we were probably a little bit too ambitious, in hindsight. So I’m trying to figure out how to do a streamlined version of it. But we asked African filmmakers to pick their favorite African films. And then what we also did is we kind of did it in this chainmail type process. So one person would pick one and then we got that person to pick the next and so on, and so on until the chain broke. And then we’d start it again and ask someone else. And then we also tried to map what are the African films that you should have seen. So we looked at Sundance, we looked at Berlin, we looked at Tribeca and Venice and SXSW and the big international festivals. And we went, “What African films have won there?” at the biggest stages in the world. And then we looked at things like Vimeo and Short of the Week and went what are the films that have been picked on these short film platforms that are probably the most influential in the world? And I think when I say we bit off a lot, I think at every stage, we were just amazed by how rich Africa’s film history was. And I should really have known this because I ran The Call Sheet and The Filmmakers Guide to South Africa, which are two local trades. But if I asked you how many African-linked films have won at the Oscars, what’s the figure that comes into your head?
Yalezo Njuguna
How many African, wait…African?
Kevin Kriedemann
So, I’m using vague phrasing. So African-linked films. So set in Africa, or made by Africans, or about Africa.
Yalezo Njuguna
Aiiii…besides Tsotsi? Well, if it’s like African-made besides Tsotsi I’m not exactly sure if I’m if I’m being honest, if it’s like Oscars. I know like you’ve had films set in Africa, like Out of Africa, but those weren’t necessarily African films so I’m not sure where those would fall within the actual spectrum in terms of like, co-productions, that have been set here and stuff. But actually, that is a very interesting question. Do you have an answer for that question?
Kevin Kriedemann
So I mean, the Oscars are probably a bad example, because the Oscars are so weighted towards studio films, which are other people telling Africa’s story rather than Africans telling their stories. So, it’s a very…it is a shortlist if we go how many African directors have won. But if you look at how many films set in Africa have won at the Oscars? You’re looking at nearly 50. Which is a much bigger figure than I would have expected. Then if you look at something like Berlin, which is probably much better at recognizing actual African directors, you’re again, looking at around 50. If you look at Vimeo staff picks you up to kind of 150. So there’s this wealth of content that has done really well talking about our lives. And admittedly, because of the nature of those festivals and access to them, they are still weighted towards outsider voices. And that is problematic. And I don’t want to make that not sound problematic. But we were just amazed that we kept finding these things that were about Africa that no one in Africa knew about or had seen. So we got to release emotional response on it. People would go, “Wow! I just hadn’t known there was so much to watch. This stuff is amazing.” People really, really liked it. But it was also niche. I don’t think we ever…I think we kind of hit our 5000…we kind of hit 5000 really quickly and a couple of thousand people on all the different…on the web…So, 5000 on the website, a couple of thousand on all the different social medias. But to get beyond that. I don’t know, maybe with more time and more money on it. But I think part of the challenge is, is that that audience is quite small in the sense that our task is this: if we look at what people love on Showmax, they love telenovelas and they love action movies. They don’t really love French arthouse, which is probably the richest genre of African film, if you’re looking at what’s won international awards, and North African as well. North Africa has got a really rich film tradition. But those are both hard sells in a South African context, with subtitles. But yeah, so I’d like to find a way to do it again at some stage, but we probably need to find a slightly more streamlined version. And I think what we had also thought, I think, probably naively, is that I’d be able to create something, link to where to watch it, and then that page will be able to live forever. But actually, what happens is that everyone is doing three-month to one-year licensing deals. So that link on where to watch it, has to keep changing and keep being updated. Which becomes an entire job in itself when you build a very large library of kind of African classics. And then the technology also, unfortunately, keeps changing. So we built the site just before WordPress reinvented itself, completely. And then all the plugins that we’d been using, and all the rules about video being allowed to play online, all changed. So, the maintenance on these things is a lot of work. But it was it was fun. I learned a lot. I discovered a bunch of amazing filmmakers, and I watched some really fun, amazing films that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise. So, lots to be grateful for on it.
Yalezo Njuguna
So now kind of sticking within…I know you spoke about the fact that a lot of the content is niche in terms of also just like the subject matter. But one of the conversations…the conversation, which I’m not sure is had enough: I like studying like the weekly box office numbers in terms of the local-box-office-at-the-cinema numbers. And I’ve been doing it since like, I don’t know, like since 2015. I find that sometimes the conversations we have around the performances of local content, or even African content is not necessarily fair, because we tend to compare apples with mangoe. In terms of for example, I remember the week Kalushi came out Black Panther was kind of like in its fourth week at number one. And people were like, “Oh wait, you guys all went to support Black Panther. But you won’t support Kalushi.” But Kalushi is a biopic and Black Panther is a big blockbuster family-oriented film that’s got action comedy… this this this that. But one of the interesting things that I did find is that when I started comparing apples with apples, I started to find that there was a lot that South African films…on a… if you’re comparing box office to box office, we’re actually…we’re on par. So for example, a film like Five Fingers For Marseilles, I think grossed 1.7 million (rand) at the box office, which sounds like a low number. But when you look at Western films, something like True Grit, which was a big Oscar winner, grossed 1.5 million (rand). I believe The Hateful Eight also grossed somewhere around 1.6 million/1.7 million (rand). So, the crowd that would have gone to watch, the western crowd, went and supported Five Fingers For Marseilles just as well. The year that Happiness is a Four Letter Word came out, it was… Happiness and Vir Altyd, were the top pure romance, actual sellers of the year. So what I wanted to kind of understand also is, how well does African programming or South African programming, like for like, kind of perform within these platforms,
Kevin Kriedemann
It’s a good question. So Showmax stats are all tightly guarded. So, it’s hard to go this specific one versus this specific one, because the minute we say, “This is a huge hit”, then all that really happens is they come back and ask for more money when it needs to be relicensed or if someone else tries to license it. So, the secrets are, are definitely kept closely. I think when.. I think you’re right. I think that if you look like for like, there’s definitely an audience. I don’t think that we can say that international movies are all more popular than all South African films. I think it’s just the reality is most South African films are relatively arthouse in one way or another. And if you compare them to other relatively the arthouse films, they do very well. I think what was great about things like Vir Altyd and I Word is that they were so commercial. They were straight romcoms. And I’d love that, that we are getting more and more commercial in our filmmaking. So it’s all along… I do think when you look at the top 10 movies of the year on Showmax, that’s still what… or the top 10 of the week, even, that’s still weighted International. But I think that’s still changing and we’re seeing breakouts. So Losing Lerato, for instance, done very well Back of the Moon, Joko Ya Hao, The Recce. All of those have come and have competed with international films on a top 10 type level. So the audience is there. I think, though, when you talk about those numbers, when I was still doing journalism to The Call Sheet, so this is a long time ago, so I might be slightly outdated. But it is worth like it’s worth going… The challenge is that the model is broken. In that, when a film, like Five Fingers For Marseille, is grossing under 2 million (rand) at the box office , what that actually means is that you’ve got a half that figure because half the money is going towards the distributor, and the cinemas themselves. And then you still got to deduct print and advertising costs from that. And I mean, for context, on a Showmax original, we would spend more than that kind of money just marketing it, let alone the price to get a film into cinemas, which I mean 10 years ago was about R10k per cinema. And I know they’ve gone digital and I know that’s come down marginally but it’s not much. So to get it to kind of 35 cinemas used to cost you 350,000 Rand and again, my figures are out so they’re outdated. So don’t quote me on it. But it is just that sense of going, “This is the problem with the model which says we’ve got to make our money at the cinema in South Africa only”. That’s just not really sustainable when you look and watch something like Five Fingers For Marseilles cost, let alone what should have cost because they all nearly killed themselves to make that, in true South African film industry style. So I think what’s going to be in… I mean, to be rather honest, a lot of South African cinema releases have been vanity exercises where cinema is this wonderful experience that every filmmaker wants. You want to see your film up big but if you frame that question as, which of the South African films released at cinema made financial sense to release at cinema? It is quite a short list still, unfortunately at this stage. Which I think is why it’s good tha streaming is starting to come into that space and that there are more options. It’s also why it would be great if there was a Pan-African audience that you could do a broader cinema run rather than just be in South African cinemas. But all of this is going to take time.
Yalezo Njuguna
Yeah. It is and it takes I think a lot more…we’ve gotten very technical into our conversation, but a lot, a lot more of these types of conversations…. Because one of the things which I’ve also found very refreshing within it, is like for example, if you move even into television, Mzansi Magic has now, on Sunday, started doing Local Film Sundays where literally every week they’re showing a different local film and you get to see them…
Kevin Kriedemann
Yeah, absolutely. And you see Twitter takes off.
Yalezo Njuguna
And you see Twitter takes off. And what I found very interesting with that is that some of these films, when they actually had their cinema runs. If you looked at the same people who are talking about the films, they hadn’t gone to watch the films, but they already had a negative view of these films. And they had like a yeah…They were like South African films don’t market or this film is trash. And now they’re actually watching the film. So even though I don’t think it necessarily says when cinemas back open, well cinemas are back open, but once South African films are back of cinema that there’ll be more support for them. But this seems to be kind of more penetration into understanding that the scope of South African cinema is a little bit wider than struggle films, because that’s kind of been the general consensus, that we do struggle films. And that’s if you’re going to the cinema, you’re going to watch a struggle film or you’re going to watch…
Kevin Kriedemann
Yeah, I mean, that’s very outdated. South Africa has made absolutely every sort of film there is to make, since democracy. I think I’ve seen everything, including a bunch of things I wish I hadn’t. But I think it’s important for filmmakers to go, “Where is the audience?” and the audience at the moment, numbers wise, is not in cinemas. So that is why if you want to reach a South African audience, getting that sort of a slot in Mzansi, or on SABC is always going to get you a bigger audience than your cinema run is. It’s just, we’ve inherited this global system where that’s not where the prestige is and your cinema run is where the prestige is. And until recently, your cinema run was what set the price for your film for subsequent sales. So, it’s a complicated, it’s a complicated discussion, but it’s great. And it’s also great, that was Mzansi Magic started actually funding films upfront, like Knuckle City. So I think it’s already exciting. And they’ve done an amazing job hey. Like they know their audience, they’ve built their audience and you see Twitter Sunday night…
Yalezo Njuguna
As someone who has done productions for Mzansi, very much so, almost to a tee. It’s a… It can be..I don’t wanna say it can be quite frustrating but when you’re on the filmmaker side, you then understand how much they understand the audience. So that when you’re diverting, they even let you know, “This diversion here, will revert in this type of feedback.” So you’re like,”Do you want that type of feedback? Or do you want this to…” So like, when you’re working with the commissioning editors, or even with the marketing team, you do kind of get this understanding that they have a great understanding of their audience, because they also, through their Lokshin Bioscope films they’ve had those films, even though they vary in quality. You find that there are sci-fi films within there. There are comedy films. There are drama films. There are romance films. There are films of all types of genres. So since they’ve kind of tested those out, they know what hits what doesn’t hit. What they are willing to take a risk on, what they’re not willing to take a risk. And they’ve done that type of volume to get that type of information.
Kevin Kriedemann
My theory on audiences is also that I do think South Africa is quite a traumatized country in a lot of ways. Which means that it’s natural that we’re quite escapist in what we watch. So, I think that makes a lot of sense to me. I remember one of my sisters was living in Switzerland, and I phoned and I asked her, “So, what are you doing this weekend?” And she’s like “no, we’re going to fundraiser for an orphanage in Africa.” And I found it fascinating this idea that people where they’re not…where life is slightly simpler, kind of go out looking for drama. Whereas it’s different here. It’s like, we’ve got plenty of drama. And that’s not an absolute thing. But we definitely see the most loyal audiences in South Africa are the most escapist, and the more you, you deviate from that the smaller your audience gets. And I’m really a big fan of arthouse stuff. So I like things that deviate from, from mainstream audiences. But you’ve just got to understand that those choices make an impact on the audience size
Yalezo Njuguna
Yeah. Which is, I think, why I kind of get excited with the entries of streaming and more streaming players, because it then allows for you to then get more targeted audiences. Because when you’re dealing with broadcasters, essentially, you have to have the knowledge that you’re talking to a seven year old and a granny at the same time. So whatever you putting on there, has to have that knowledge within it, even if it’s going on at 8:30 because even if it’s starting at 8:30, your still going to have a 12:30 rerun time. And that…whereas…
Kevin Kriedemann
And what’s wonderful about Showmax is that you have to actually press play to watch something. So, I think where a lot of complaints come in, and understandably so, is you turn on your TV and you’re shown something you don’t want to see and you didn’t ask to see. Anyone on Showmax doesn’t quite have that ability to complain because they’ve pressed play first. So they’ve got control over what they choose. So, we do very much. We’ve become the home of the more niche and the more kind of after dark titles that can… and I think you’re seeing that on the content coming through the Showmax. We get the stuff that is a little bit more risque, that is a little bit more edgy, because it’s just logical and we also have fewer hoops to jump through with people like advertisers who otherwise get nervous on a terrestrial TV.
Yalezo Njuguna
So, with that, where do you kind of see, and I don’t want to keep on you for too long, Where do you see…Where is kind of the future of Showmax going? I know, very much so, that next year, you guys have two very massive productions. Of which one is the most excited I’ve been for any production, bar none. Am I now talking about Blood Psalms! Look! A show about African mythology? I don’t think… A show that centered around African mythology. One of the things I found, the main thing that they’ve been talking about is that it’s kind of like a Game of Thrones-esque show. What I find fascinating about that, is Game of Thrones is very much steeped in European history. Almost every character, you can trace them down to a story that you can then find. Whether it’s about the Mongols or whether it’s about the Victorias and when you listen to Jahmil talk about the characters, he’s gone, in terms of history, all the way back to BC. So as someone who’s been robbed, who feels robbed,of a lot of African history, prior…pre-colonial African history. This feels like a show that’s going to give that, with the drama. So when I say I’ve not been this excited, for a show, I have not. Like not like,
Kevin Kriedemann
He’s just a great filmmaker as well.
Yalezo Njuguna
Yes
Kevin Kriedemann
He threw all the punches in Knuckle City. So, if anyone’s going to pull off something like this, it’s going to be him as well.
Yalezo Njuguna
So what is, what is the future of Showmax looking like in terms of where we’re kind of going next.
Kevin Kriedemann
So, I’m very optimistic about South African content. And I think that, if I look around, Netflix coming into the market was great, because it’s lit a fire under everyone in May. A little bit of competition is sometimes just exactly what you need. So, I do feel like there’s some really strong content being made and the people are being really ambitious. And now people are putting money behind it as well. Blood Psalms is an ambitious project. So I’m excited by that. I think in terms of where Showmax goes, I think you’re going to… there’s been a constant shift towards really embracing local. I think we’re aiming towards a 50/50 local content split, but we are still going to keep bringing in the best international shows in the world. And I thoroughly enjoyed seeing the Golden Globes, and the Emmy’s because both of those Showmax actually…like you can watch more Emmy and Golden Globe winners on Showmax than you can watch anywhere else this year. So I think we’re gonna keep getting that. I think we’re gonna get Pro coming through as well, which is Showmax plus sport, which is something that’s never really been available in South Africa before. This idea that you can have a streaming package that also includes sports. So we’ve had a great response to that. And I think as soon as things like rugby start getting added on to that as well, it’s going to grow even more. So I’m feeling really optimistic about the future. I don’t think it’s a winner takes all contest. I think that there is space for multiple subscriptions. I have Netflix and Showmax, and Amazon and flip between all of them. And then I think what’s been interesting to me is just this idea that there’s been a lot of things that have surprised me, and that it feels like streaming is also moving a little bit more in line with normal TV as well. So you see, kind of, it’s not all just bingeing anymore. We get weekly releases. We get box set releases, where kinda things get staggered. What’s happening with Lovecraft Country at the moment. But I think it’s it’s… we’re still at a stage where it’s the golden age of TV, and there’s more content around than we can watch. I think what will be interesting is when the Disney+’s and the HBO Max’s, and people like that step into the market. I think, South Africa is probably one of the best places in the world to be streaming right now. Because between Showmax, and Netflix, you can watch just about anything. Whereas, if you were in the States right now, you would need kind of six subscriptions to have what’s on Showmax. So I’m hoping we don’t land up in quite as fragmented a space as somewhere like the States is. So I think that it’s it’s going to be a volatile few years like that. There are a lot of new companies that have come into the market. But I think Africa is a very specific territory. I think local knowledge is worth a lot here. So I’m interested to see how it all plays out.
Yalezo Njuguna
And I know that this is very much a frequently asked question, but I feel like it would be a miss for me to not to ask it with the people who I know are going to be listening to this. What is the actual process that filmmakers can approach Showmax? Whether it’s from a commissioning or licensing basis, if they want to be able to kind of get their content onto that platform.
Kevin Kriedemann
So, there is a blog post on the Showmax blog about, “So you have the idea for the next Showmax original” and there is an email address and a link that you can submit there. There’s also a Multichoice content portal, where you can also apply via that. Showmax has been restructured slightly. So, when Showmax started, it was independent, as part of Naspers rather than as part of Multichoice. It was a separate company. And then after a couple of years it was brought into Multichoice, which then split off from Naspers and listed separately on the JSE. And commissioning has been following the process of the to becoming one. So, when Showmax started the first originals ran through a completely different commissioning team. Now what’s starting to happen is that Multichoice is commissioning, and it becomes a Multichoice commissioning process. Which then at a certain point, Showmax says, “Oh, we want this one. Let’s push this more. It’s going to work better for our kind of niche after dark audiences. Let’s push it as much as we can. And, we’ll take that as a Showmax original.” So it’s less a case of pitching Showmax specifically, than it is I think, these days, pitching Multichoice. And the best way to do that I always tell people is, unfortunately, the nature of this industry is that it costs a lot of money to make good TV, to make good films. And because of that, it’s an industry that is risk averse. So the simplest way to do this is to not come in with a brand new project with nothing to your name behind. But it’s to say, “What TV are you enjoying? Who are the companies making it?” And then take your idea to one of those companies and say, “Hi, I love what you’re doing? Would you like to pitch this with me to a broadcaster?” and piggyback on their experience and on the trust that sits with them, and they’ll speed up your career by five years. And then once you’ve done your first successful show, then you go back to those people who you’ve met and pitch your second one as your own production company. But I think initially partnership, partnering with people who already have those relationships is a really great way to go.
Yalezo Njuguna
And in closing then, what is your thought on, this doesn’t have to be specifically on a streaming perspective, but as Kevin Kriedemann, What are your kind of thoughts on where African film is going? Because also one of the interesting things I…One of the interesting things I listened to about…because you’re talking about Disney+ and HBO Max. I think at DFM during the CAA talk, the the CAA representative basically said that a lot of them are already here in terms of looking for talent. That they can start creating productions that I know that…I believe…yeah… so he was talking about people like Mohamed Hefzy, who heads the Cairo Film Festival. They’ve started already approaching people like those. Blitz Bazawule who did Black is King as well as your Kagiso’s. In terms of doing talent searches for an African filmmakers to be able to start producing content that then lives within the wider space. In terms of African for international audiences. Because the way that Africa is portrayed there is slightly different, as you’ve as really spoke spoken about in terms of niches to Africa for Africa or local for local. Where do you feel? Where do you see African cinema and/or content going?
Kevin Kriedemann
So I mean, it’s definitely everyone is already here. I mean, I see that with Triggerfish. They’re making Mama K’s Team 4 for Netflix as their first animated African series. And I mean, I think every major studio in the world is looking for great African content that they can stream globally. So, I’m really excited about that. I think African stories are going to go global. I hope that we learn from the mistakes of the past. And that it’s not just outsider perspectives. I hope that people wanting to tell African stories are going to use Africans to tell them. I’m not saying that outsider perspectives aren’t valuable and beautiful. Outsider films about Africa who really do it well. And sometimes they see things with fresh eyes that we don’t. But I think there’s such a historical overrepresentation, that it becomes problematic. So I’m hoping we’re going to see a wave of African filmmakers telling their story, their way. I hope that something doesn’t get lost in that. Like if I look at someone like Nosipho Dumisa who’s a wild talent. She’s wonderful. I loved Nommer 37 but I haven’t loved Blood and Water nearly as much. And I hope that in going global, we don’t lose our sense of geography and place and the things that make us distinct. And we don’t dilute ourselves for international audiences. But I think that that’s going to come with practice. And I’m quite sure we’ll get there. And I think it’s really exciting that Multichoice for instance, is starting to do more and more co-productions. Blood Psalms is being made with Canal+, for example. So I think you’re going to see lots of that, but I don’t think that that will ever be the majority of the content being made in Africa. And I wouldn’t really want it to be. I hope that we have a bunch of really great content that travels the world. And I hope we keep making some really great content that is just so specific to where we are that we laugh at it harder than anyone else with anywhere else. And if we can get that combo right, we’re in a good place. If we land up in a place where everything is being made for international broadcasters and international eyes then I’ll be a bit sad.
Yalezo Njuguna
So then finally, to kind of close things off, I’m going to ask you two questions, but you can answer it as… within one. But where ca…if you leave a final message for any budding or aspiring filmmaker, or creative about what to do or how to feel about the current landscape, as well as where people can find you, if they wanna ask you any further questions or to know more about what it is that you do as Kevin Kriedeman, what would you say?
Kevin Kriedemann
Okay, well, contacting me is simple. You can just email me, Kevin@africa.film. I get lots of emails. So please just be patient with me but I do always try and respond to everyone. I used to be good on social media. I’m really crap at it at the moment. I just have too many other things on the go. And then I think it’s a really exciting time to be a filmmaker. I think, if I could give advice that would be really simple. It would be understand that you’re not the first filmmaker in Africa, and watch the people who are already doing it. Because then you’ll understand the resources that you have. You’ll understand what works and what doesn’t work. So try and understand Africa’s rich film history before you try and add to it. I get the sense that a lot of filmmakers arrive on the scene thinking that they’re going to be the first person to make something amazing from Africa. And I think that that’s not the best place to start. I think if you can really understand and appreciate and work with the people who’ve already been doing things with a mix of fresh talent. That’s a great setup to have. And they are just such wonderful actors and cast and crew. Yeah, so I think just the broader a sense of African film history you have, the more interesting your films are likely to be. And I think make your real life your inspiration for your stories, not something you’ve seen in Hollywood. I don’t think we need people remaking worse versions with smaller budgets of things from elsewhere. I think we need people telling stories about life her. That are inspired by life here, not by something they’ve seen on the screen made by someone else around the world.
Yalezo Njuguna
That is really great advice. Specifically, the “don’t think you’re the first African to make a great film”. Because I know personally, I won’t lie, I didn’t have necessarily the full idea that I was like coming into the industry. Because a lot of what what we studied within our course was not African related. So you kind of come into the film industry and you’re like, yeah…You come into the film industry thinking that there isn’t much there. So then you have to then actively start finding it. Also, I think it’s, it’s a good thing to question why it is that you haven’t seen it. And if you haven’t seen it, what it is that you can kind of do to ease that gap. Because I think the more that we ease that gap to be able to understand our history as African, whether it’s South African for South African or just even general continentally. The more you understand what’s out there, the more we can understand. If something was really great, but it didn’t get to you, why didn’t it? and what can we do, so that when you do something great, it can also then get to more people. Because there are still… we’re very much in a growing industry. And there are gaps that we kind of continuously need to fill to make sure that, 10 or 15 years from now, we can have a film…someone come out and say, “I wanna make a great film” and their debut film can make the top three in the box office, if they so choose. So yeah, I really do resonate with that advice. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for taking
Kevin Kriedemann
Thank you. It’s always fun. Hopefully we get to do this again in person instead.
Yalezo Njuguna
Very much so
Kevin Kriedemann
glass of wine…
Yalezo Njuguna
When either you come to Joburg or I come down to Cape Town and it’s not a pandemic. Yes, very much so. Yes. Thank you so much for your time. I hope you have an amazing, amazing rest of your day. This was…I actually enjoyed this conversation. I got a lot from it. I hope you did too. And yeah, this has been Afriquan Film.
END OF INTERVEW.
Episode Outro: Yalezo Njuguna
That was the first episode of the Afriquan Film Podcast with our special guest Kevin Kriedemann. Thank you so much for listening. I am Yalezo Njuguna, the host and editor of this specific podcast. This specific episode was sponsored by the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture. I’d also like to acknowledge part of the amazing team that helped bring this project together, including my amazing co-producer Kibare wa Nuguna, the voice-over artist Nomava Kibare as well as the producer, the music producer who composed the music specifically for this podcast, Katlego DoouShii Tema. To find out more about Afriquan film, do follow our social pages @Afriquanfilm. Which is A-F-R-I-Q-U-A-N. It is Q-U-A-N because it was meant to be kind of like a portmanteau because we started during quarantine. So we just wanted to make an Afriquan film but qua-rantine in it. So that’s just to kind of answer that question before it comes up. Because I’ve been asked that question whilst we were still a club. But anyway, to find out more do follow us at A-F-R-I-Q-U-A-N film (@afriquanfilm). And finally if you’d like to listen to more podcasts hosted by myself, I also host a music podcast by the name of the Next Gen Greats Podcast where essentially we get artists to break down the process behind some of their upcoming projects or their released projects. So that is Next Gen Greats. You can find that post on the website, thenext generationofgreats.com, as well as jus…If you go onto your Spotify Apple, Google. Next Gen greats.com. Again, thank you so much for listening. Our next episode will come out next Wednesday and it is with the filmmaker of Kevin Kriedemann’s current favorite film Softie as we speak to Sam Soko about filming Softie and the process of documentary filmmaking. So, if this is something which you’re very interested in, do come back. We’re very happy to have you, here on Afriquan Film, Where we explore African Cinema.